Curse

Nainoa · Aug 19, 2008, 05:50 AM // 05:50

It's called saving time. I don't play a video game to stand around spamming an ad hoping someone sees it among all the other millions of ad spams in trade. This should have been implemented when tomes were released just as we have other traders. In addition, they should have made a max level upgrades and inscriptions trader ages ago. Not to mention making them stackable. Inventory management is crap in this game, and so is the trade system.

daze · Aug 19, 2008, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nainoa

It's called saving time. I don't play a video game to stand around spamming an ad hoping someone sees it among all the other millions of ad spams in trade. This should have been implemented when tomes were released just as we have other traders. In addition, they should have made a max level upgrades and inscriptions trader ages ago. Not to mention making them stackable. Inventory management is crap in this game, and so is the trade system.

Ok then so do you think that a trader should be added for: Green weapons, Four leaf clovers, Candy canes, honeycombs, ZKeys, and minipets.

Using your same argument you could apply to any one of those traders.
Its called saving time. I don't play video games to stand around spamming an ad hoping someone sees it among all the other millions of ad spams in trade.

Da Rk Bl Ad E · Aug 19, 2008, 10:21 AM // 10:21

This is a bad idea Imo /notsigned.

oh and that yawg guy made me lol with his ignorance.

Dr.Jones · Aug 19, 2008, 09:03 PM // 21:03

i think if you made it so the skill trainer was able to sell a range of normal skill tomes for $500 but at 2 skill points instead of one would make it balanced enough so people would still want to get them from trading and hard mode. but would add a way to get skills at a cheeper price.

so the skill trader in kamadam would only trade paragon, dervish and then the one at the sunspear sanctuary would have 2 different professions, and so on. so that way it would bring meaning to go to certain towns, and that those towns for that campaign would be the only ones that have those profession tomes, but each campaign would have all 10 professions. this would also make the 100k skill trainer for your guild hall and which guild hall you have more important and more worth having.

Murmel · Aug 19, 2008, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Took me 2 hours of spamming in Spamadan American and EU English to get 10 elementalist tomes. Should've bought the skills instead.
Anyway.
/kinda-signed.
The prices must change and not stay at like 800g ea... It has got to be something like mats.

Raul the Rampant · Aug 20, 2008, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murmel

The prices must change and not stay at like 800g ea... It has got to be something like mats.

But the problem is that materials are fundamentally different in nature when compared to tomes in that there is no alternative to a given material. To illustrate, say you want a set of fow armor. In order to get armor you need shards and ecto... you can't make, say, d-steel and glittering dust replace them. This lack of alternatives allows for sellers to have more leverage (because the consumer is faced with the choice of paying or not getting the armor/weapon) and makes the prices much more fluid depending on the market at that exact moment.

Skills are different, though. If you need a particular skill you have several choices: A) buy it from a trader, B) buy a tome, or C) do a quest and receive it as a reward (in some cases). The point is that there is more than one way to get to obtain this skill, and each method works just as effectively as the other. Not only that, but the skill trader offers this service at a cost of no higher than 1k per skill; this means that in order for a person to find the alternatives advantageous the cost of a tome (or time spent doing a quest to get a skill) would have to be comparable. When tomes are considerably less than 1k the demand for them is much larger and sellers can't keep up... in a free supply and demand market (on which the game's economy is intended to function) the cost of a tome from the trader would settle very near if not exactly 1k. People would then sell tomes to other people for as close as they could get to 1k without going over... which leads us right back to where we started with the ~800g for a caster tome. Again, the skill trainer is already a tome trader; he just saves you the step of double clicking on the tome itself.

Losttoapathy · Aug 20, 2008, 01:16 AM // 01:16

/notsigned

If you want skills, play through the game and get them the way it was intended in the first place.

Yawgmoth · Aug 20, 2008, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Da Rk Bl Ad E

This is a bad idea Imo /notsigned.

oh and that yawg guy made me lol with his ignorance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Losttoapathy

/notsigned

If you want skills, play through the game and get them the way it was intended in the first place.

Ahh Ignorant people... so many of them here.
They don't realise tomes are already in game, and BUYING them from people is often THE new different way of getting skills.
And that the Trader NPC would be just a RESELLER, dealing the very same tomes which are in the player-2-player market fluctuation now, NOT a new cheap skill trainer.

So I keep reading lame posts like those quoted, but STILL haven't seen at least ONE viable argument against this fantastic idea.

And what they come up with? Utter nonsense like comparing it to a Greens or Minipets trader...

Tender Wolf · Aug 20, 2008, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Jones

i think if you made it so the skill trainer was able to sell a range of normal skill tomes for 500g but at 2 skill points instead of one would make it balanced enough so people would still want to get them from trading and hard mode. but would add a way to get skills at a cheeper price.

I like that idea. It's stupid how after a while skills cost 1k each. It adds up with the ~250 skills in the game. I'd much rather spend 500g each and 2 skill points instead. Even after getting Legendary Skill Hunter, I STILL have almost 200 skill points. What am I gonna do with them? They'd have been put to much better use saving money on cap sigs.

Oh, and for the original suggestion, I still say /notsigned. It takes away part of HM. Tomes are unique to HM and I agree with someone who said if this was added you might as well add a trader for green weapons, mini pets, and holiday items.

daze · Aug 20, 2008, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

Ahh Ignorant people... so many of them here.
They don't realise tomes are already in game, and BUYING them from people is often THE new different way of getting skills.
And that the Trader NPC would be just a RESELLER, dealing the very same tomes which are in the player-2-player market fluctuation now, NOT a new cheap skill trainer.

So I keep reading lame posts like those quoted, but STILL haven't seen at least ONE viable argument against this fantastic idea.

And what they come up with? Utter nonsense like comparing it to a Greens or Minipets trader...

Ahh how blindly blissfully ignorant some people can be, Asking for ONE good example when MANY great reasons have been given.
Maybe if i dumb it down as much as i can so certain parties, that will remain unnamed, can understand.
Elite skills, Good.
Capture own skills, good because challenge
Spend time, find player with elite tome: Ok because not too easy
dedicated tome trader for easy access, spend no time or energy finding elite skill:bad because too easy.

There I hope the word "dedicated' wasnt too big of a word but in all that was like Gieco "so simple a caveman could understand"

MithranArkanere · Aug 20, 2008, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nainoa

It's called saving time. I don't play a video game to stand around spamming an ad hoping someone sees it among all the other millions of ad spams in trade. This should have been implemented when tomes were released just as we have other traders. In addition, they should have made a max level upgrades and inscriptions trader ages ago. Not to mention making them stackable. Inventory management is crap in this game, and so is the trade system.

One thing is having things to ease the game. Another is having an 'automake button'.

If you want a fast character in PvP, you can make PvP characters.
In PvE, you are supposed to play through the game.

Dr.Jones · Aug 20, 2008, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

One thing is having things to ease the game. Another is having an 'automake button'.

If you want a fast character in PvP, you can make PvP characters.
In PvE, you are supposed to play through the game.

this is true but getting a pve ch rdy for pvp is rather hard and takes a lot of time and money. ie perfect weaps sets, and all skills. + your 15k armor ( might as well if your going to do the pve route and i think anything to make that jump easier is welcomed.

Yawgmoth · Aug 22, 2008, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

Ahh how blindly blissfully ignorant some people can be, Asking for ONE good example when MANY great reasons have been given.
Maybe if i dumb it down as much as i can so certain parties, that will remain unnamed, can understand.
Elite skills, Good.
Capture own skills, good because challenge
Spend time, find player with elite tome: Ok because not too easy
dedicated tome trader for easy access, spend no time or energy finding elite skill:bad because too easy.

There I hope the word "dedicated' wasnt too big of a word but in all that was like Gieco "so simple a caveman could understand"

So basically all you said is: Trading improvements are bad.

You're forgetting one most important part there, the PRICE!
"Spend no time or energy finding elite skill" - but FFS you have to PAY extra for the service of getting it fast. You can do the same now - just go spam "WTB Elite Xxx Tome 15k" and you'll get it in 1 or 3 minutes, most likely in multiples (if you spam in right towns/districts obv.)

I'm not the kind of guy who wants things easier - in most cases I hate when they make things unnecesarily easier.
I really didn't originally like the whole idea of Elite Tomes making getting elites insta-easy, but after seeing where their prices went I started to like them - they are hot valuable money drops, and I can sell them! I continued to cap my elites the old way and I never bought an Elite tome for own use.
So Elite tomes already made it easier for those who have too much gold to blow on them, it can't be denied. And all we're talking about now here is only trading! It's only about improving trading of already tradeable and commonly traded items!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tender Wolf

It takes away part of HM. Tomes are unique to HM and I agree with someone who said if this was added you might as well add a trader for green weapons, mini pets, and holiday items.

For me it would actually ADD more value to HM!
I would finally be able to SELL my 'unique to HM' (and Zaishen Chest, which everyone keeps forgetting) drops! Now they only take my precious storage space... and remind me of... RUNES before Rune trader was finally added. Oooh, that one was a great improvement, it freed so much storage space and saved so much time. And nobody was crying then.

Oh and WTF is with this comparing tomes to greens, minis and event items?? They need an improved trading solution just aswell! But in their case a trader npc is not a good way for it, do I have to list the reasons again, for xth time?

T1Cybernetic · Aug 22, 2008, 09:45 AM // 09:45

If you put the tome traded in the end game areas, then mostly only people who have had a character to the end game areas could buy them

Sweet Mystery · Aug 22, 2008, 10:57 AM // 10:57

Just bring in the Xunlai merchant and can buy/sell tomes from players with no issues... hope that does come in after all the talk...

Raul the Rampant · Aug 22, 2008, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

It's only about improving trading of already tradeable and commonly traded items!

*Pauses* Streamlining trade allows sellers to put less effort into selling and buyers put less effort into buying. Faster sales mean that the sellers now have more time to go out and farm more tomes because it takes less time to sell them. More time farming leads to more instances of drops, which leads to a larger supply of items. Faster selling also increases the incentive for people who had not previously been farming tomes to start, as it becomes a more accessible way to make money; similarly people who hadn't previous bought tomes would be more likely to start buying them as sellers become easier to find.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

You fail...
...to realise that introduction of a trader npc doesn't change the Rarity of items at all! Learn the basics, learn how the traders work. They only sell items players sold to them, they don't generate them out of thin air.

*Pauses for effect* Except the trader makes them more accessible to players to purchase. NPC traders for items that exist year round stay in exactly the same place all day every day no matter what. Not only that, but if there's a seller in Tyria who gives his tome to the NPC that same tome can then be bough by a person located in Cantha or Elona even when the original seller is not online. That by itself serves to increase the supply to 'all tomes in existence' from the current 'all tomes in (insert outpost) at this moment in time.' The fact that people have to be located in the same place at the same time to trade contributes substantially to the rarity of items, regardless of drop rate. By eliminating that control we give the farmers even more time to farm and further compound the problem outlined above. Furthermore, those tomes that drop in pvp and simply sit in storage (that can be sold easily at the Temple of Balth, I might add) would also be introduced and increase the supply even more. I don't know how many times I need to say this, but increased supply leads to lower prices.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

So if the Elite tomes remain as rare as they are now, having a trader won't make less rare or easy to get.

*Ponders* Nope, sorry, this won't be the case in practice. Faster and easier trade allows more instances to occur (as I've outlined above), and more instances make the supply increase. As supply is the fundamental reciprocal of rarity when one changes the other has to do the opposite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

and remind me of... RUNES before Rune trader was finally added. Oooh, that one was a great improvement, it freed so much storage space and saved so much time. And nobody was crying then.

Alrighty, if you insist... anyone besides me remember way back when sup vigor and sup abs were testing the boundaries of the 100k barrier? Anyone care to go take a look at how far we've come in that regard? The trader himself didn't create any runes of his own, but look how much the supply increased simply because he increased the speed and ease with which people could obtain and sell them (aka 'trade improvement'). And to make matters worse, runes are harder to reliably farm than tomes. If you want a certain tome, find a zone with mobs of that profession get to it; last I checked particular runes weren't linked to any given profession or species as drops.

MithranArkanere · Aug 22, 2008, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweet Mystery

Just bring in the Xunlai merchant and can buy/sell tomes from players with no issues... hope that does come in after all the talk...

Yeah. That's it.

There are many items with no traders, like weapons, offhands, miniatures, tomes, consumables...

What we need for them is not more traders, but the Xunlai Market.

R.Shayne · Aug 22, 2008, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Remember we can't have a Xunlai Market because it would speed up trading then people would have more time to play and get more stuff and cause the price to drop on everything. /end sarcasm

I am for anything that fixes the trade system. If server strain is an issue then remove all the traders and go with a Xunlai Market. One Xunlai Market for everything but don’t see it happening.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

*Alrighty, if you insist... anyone besides me remember way back when sup vigor and sup abs were testing the boundaries of the 100k barrier? Anyone care to go take a look at how far we've come in that regard? The trader himself didn't create any runes of his own, but look how much the supply increased simply because he increased the speed and ease with which people could obtain and sell them (aka 'trade improvement').

Wrong in so many ways it is funny.

When expert salvage kits started having 100% chance of getting a rune is what killed the price of Superior Vigor. Pause for it - Increased Supply

When people realized that Superior Absorption only counts on that armor part killed Superior Absorption (don't stack). Pause for it - Decreased Demand

Raul the Rampant · Aug 22, 2008, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

When expert salvage kits started having 100% chance of getting a rune is what killed the price of Superior Vigor. Pause for it - Increased Supply

When people realized that Superior Absorption only counts on that armor part killed Superior Absorption (don't stack). Pause for it - Decreased Demand

Almost had me there, but not quite. First, you're probably right about sup absorption. I forgot about that. But that's a special case as its mechanic works differently than other runes. As for vigor, yes, when salvage kits were adjusted and the probability of getting a rune became 100% the price did go down a pretty good amount. But that update came out sometime in November of 2005, several months after the downward trend in the prices of runes. The rune trader himself appeared in early June of that year, and the trend was already in full swing when salvage kits were changed.

Don't believe me? Look at the old threads here on guru.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Superior Vigor and Absorption are selling for 100k each at the trader and still sell out in fractions of a second.

Dated 6-9-05. http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...une+pricecheck

Less than two weeks later:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eclair

Prices have been dropping a lot lately. Superior Vigors are going for 66k now

. Dated 6-19-05 http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ht=rune+trader

A 34k drop in prices in 10 days? Before there was a 100% chance of salvaging a rune? Some other forces (i.e. the increased availability offered by the trader) had to cause this. You're logic was absolutely correct, though it only compounded a problem that already existed.

Hyper.nl · Aug 26, 2008, 08:43 AM // 08:43

/signed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miss Puddles

why wouldn't you just add elite skills to the regular skill trainer?

Because that would defeat the idea of supply and demand by players.